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Angels of Death

Winning gunfights in BR

H3rd

Recruit
When it comes to Plunder, I seem to be able to win a decent amount of gunfights. When I am in BR (2,3,4), I seem to lose, even if I have full plates and a Grau or CR-56 Amax on me. Those are my go to right now. M4A1 at times too.

I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Maybe I am more stressed because more is on the line with BR than Plunder?

I will be in a building and know someone is coming as soon as I turn the corner, I start drilling them, but lose the gunfight, even if I did not potato. I wonder what I can work on to get better? I also seem to lose when someone is shooting at me from a window.

I see some folks get shot at and they turn and take out one, two and sometimes three people!! WTH, I cannot even take out one at times!

Any strategy would be helpful. Thanks!
 

Angels of Death

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
First suggestion is: don't use the Grau. It is one of the worst short-range TTK (time-to-kill) rifles in the game. The primary advantage the Grau has is low, easily controllable recoil that allows you to stay on target while full-autoing at longer ranges (>100m), while players using other guns have to burst to stay on target. There are only a few rifles that have this ability (the Bruen is another which is why everyone is using it right now, and both the M13 and Kilo have very nice recoil profiles as well).

However in short-range/CQC situations, you are severely outgunned if you are using a Grau, because at that distance you are expected to be accurate while full-autoing any weapon you're carrying. So poof there goes the Grau's only advantage.

According to the integral charts I've built to analyze "time under the TTK curve", the best A/R right now for short-range (<50m) is the CR-56. So keep using that. The AK is also very good, despite everyone wanting to hate on its "bad recoil" even though it isn't really any different from the CR-56. Also the RAM-7 is basically a glorified SMG/AR hybrid that has great TTKs for short-range if you can control its terrible recoil.

Here's a quick comparison using TrueGameData's comparison tool, to show how bad the Grau is at TTK, and that the FAL is no longer the best short-range weapon after the most recent weapon-balance update. All 4 rifles here are kitted with Mono Suppressors, their longest barrels, the Tac Laser, a Commando Grip, and the smaller extended mag if it exists (24 for the FAL, 50 for the Grau). Also the Romanian Barrel for the AK comes with an integrated Merc Grip, which allows you to save an attachment slot which I've used to add a No Stock to the AK for max ADS/movement speed buffs for CQC combat effectiveness.

2020-08-17_08-37-44.png

The CR-56 has the fastest TTK across all ranges out through 35m, which encompasses any gunfighting you will experience inside buildings and most short-range combat outside. The AK is very close however, and actually grabs the lead for about 5m after the CR-56 drops range. The FAL is just behind the AK through 35m, and then is roughly even with the CR-56 out to 50m, after which it grabs the lead through 57m. However if we're looking at short-range performance here, the FAL being the best from 50-57m is not very relevant. What is relevant is the CR-56 being the best from 0-35m and 40-50m. The old pre-patch FAL used to be the runaway best <25m, but that is no longer the case.

You'll notice the Grau lags far behind the others, 0.15s behind the CR-56 from 0-35m. Thanks to it's longer range dropoffs, it does become semi-useful from about 40-47m, where it's basically even with the AK. However when the Grau drops range at 47m, it becomes far and away the worst TTK weapon again trailing the CR-56 by nearly 0.30s. Again, for a short-range weapon we don't really care about performance outside 50m so that isn't entirely relevant. But at this point the Grau's only claim to fame is being roughly equal to the AK in TTK from 40-47m, while trailing every other rifle significantly inside 40m. If your issue is " as soon as I turn the corner I start drilling them but lose the gunfight even if I did not potato" then you definitely don't need to be using the Grau.

I don't know what kind of loadouts you like to run. I myself prefer to snipe so my secondary weapon has to be something useful in both short and medium ranges. I currently use a CR-56 but also routinely swap in an AK because of it's better midrange performance (50-100m). If you prefer to run an AR/SMG combo, then your AR doesn't have to be good in CQC situations. In that case I would say you can keep using the Grau, or maybe give the Bruen a try, since they are both great long-range weapons with no recoil issues. However based on the wording in your initial post, it sounds as if you're using the CR-56/Grau in short-range situations. So if you are trying to use an A/R as your main primary for shorter ranges, I would definitely suggest keeping with the CR-56 full-time.

However, this...

I see some folks get shot at and they turn and take out one, two and sometimes three people!! WTH, I cannot even take out one at times!
...just comes from experience. The ability to quickly snap onto a target is a learned skill, and the only way to improve is to play more. I'm not sure if you're on PC or console, but if you're on PC you might want to look into an aim trainer, to help improve your mouse skills.

"Peeker's advantage" is also a thing with server-hosted games. If you are waiting for them to "peek" by coming around the corner to you, their system is communicating with the server first while yours is lagged behind a few ms because the server is having to relay your opponent's movement to you. If you know someone is coming, don't wait for them to come around the corner, but instead jump around the corner at them first. This way you'll be peeking first and you'll already be ADS'd while they are running/sprinting and have to waste ~0.2s to ADS or just randomly panic some hipfire.
 

Carlos

Owner
Staff member
Private
First suggestion is: don't use the Grau. It is one of the worst short-range TTK (time-to-kill) rifles in the game. The primary advantage the Grau has is low, easily controllable recoil that allows you to stay on target while full-autoing at longer ranges (>100m), while players using other guns have to burst to stay on target. There are only a few rifles that have this ability (the Bruen is another which is why everyone is using it right now, and both the M13 and Kilo have very nice recoil profiles as well).

However in short-range/CQC situations, you are severely outgunned if you are using a Grau, because at that distance you are expected to be accurate while full-autoing any weapon you're carrying. So poof there goes the Grau's only advantage.

According to the integral charts I've built to analyze "time under the TTK curve", the best A/R right now for short-range (<50m) is the CR-56. So keep using that. The AK is also very good, despite everyone wanting to hate on its "bad recoil" even though it isn't really any different from the CR-56. Also the RAM-7 is basically a glorified SMG/AR hybrid that has great TTKs for short-range if you can control its terrible recoil.

Here's a quick comparison using TrueGameData's comparison tool, to show how bad the Grau is at TTK, and that the FAL is no longer the best short-range weapon after the most recent weapon-balance update. All 4 rifles here are kitted with Mono Suppressors, their longest barrels, the Tac Laser, a Commando Grip, and the smaller extended mag if it exists (24 for the FAL, 50 for the Grau). Also the Romanian Barrel for the AK comes with an integrated Merc Grip, which allows you to save an attachment slot which I've used to add a No Stock to the AK for max ADS/movement speed buffs for CQC combat effectiveness.

View attachment 1174

The CR-56 has the fastest TTK across all ranges out through 35m, which encompasses any gunfighting you will experience inside buildings and most short-range combat outside. The AK is very close however, and actually grabs the lead for about 5m after the CR-56 drops range. The FAL is just behind the AK through 35m, and then is roughly even with the CR-56 out to 50m, after which it grabs the lead through 57m. However if we're looking at short-range performance here, the FAL being the best from 50-57m is not very relevant. What is relevant is the CR-56 being the best from 0-35m and 40-50m. The old pre-patch FAL used to be the runaway best <25m, but that is no longer the case.

You'll notice the Grau lags far behind the others, 0.15s behind the CR-56 from 0-35m. Thanks to it's longer range dropoffs, it does become semi-useful from about 40-47m, where it's basically even with the AK. However when the Grau drops range at 47m, it becomes far and away the worst TTK weapon again trailing the CR-56 by nearly 0.30s. Again, for a short-range weapon we don't really care about performance outside 50m so that isn't entirely relevant. But at this point the Grau's only claim to fame is being roughly equal to the AK in TTK from 40-47m, while trailing every other rifle significantly inside 40m. If your issue is " as soon as I turn the corner I start drilling them but lose the gunfight even if I did not potato" then you definitely don't need to be using the Grau.

I don't know what kind of loadouts you like to run. I myself prefer to snipe so my secondary weapon has to be something useful in both short and medium ranges. I currently use a CR-56 but also routinely swap in an AK because of it's better midrange performance (50-100m). If you prefer to run an AR/SMG combo, then your AR doesn't have to be good in CQC situations. In that case I would say you can keep using the Grau, or maybe give the Bruen a try, since they are both great long-range weapons with no recoil issues. However based on the wording in your initial post, it sounds as if you're using the CR-56/Grau in short-range situations. So if you are trying to use an A/R as your main primary for shorter ranges, I would definitely suggest keeping with the CR-56 full-time.

However, this...



...just comes from experience. The ability to quickly snap onto a target is a learned skill, and the only way to improve is to play more. I'm not sure if you're on PC or console, but if you're on PC you might want to look into an aim trainer, to help improve your mouse skills.

"Peeker's advantage" is also a thing with server-hosted games. If you are waiting for them to "peek" by coming around the corner to you, their system is communicating with the server first while yours is lagged behind a few ms because the server is having to relay your opponent's movement to you. If you know someone is coming, don't wait for them to come around the corner, but instead jump around the corner at them first. This way you'll be peeking first and you'll already be ADS'd while they are running/sprinting and have to waste ~0.2s to ADS or just randomly panic some hipfire.
The Grau was a monster weapon at launch, but has been nerfed. The thing I don't like about it is the iron sights. You would need to use a different sight to really use it.
The Bruen was recently nerfed. (For some odd reason, I don't know why they decided to nerf it now, out of nowhere.)
The FAL is kinda like a laser beam, if you know how to use it. It has a "hit or miss" fire. But I think if you use it more, and gain experience with it, modify it, it could be a top-tier weapon.
The AMAX is a good gun. Just keep in mind the drop-off.
 

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
The Grau was a monster weapon at launch, but has been nerfed.
The Bruen was recently nerfed. (For some odd reason, I don't know why they decided to nerf it now, out of nowhere.)
The FAL is kinda like a laser beam, if you know how to use it. It has a "hit or miss" fire. But I think if you use it more, and gain experience with it, modify it, it could be a top-tier weapon.
The AMAX is a good gun. Just keep in mind the drop-off.
The nerfs for both the Grau and Bruen just shortened the range dropoffs, which means you need an extra hit-to-kill 10m sooner than you used to. However they haven't materially changed the recoil patterns for either rifle, so they are still hyper-accurate at longer ranges when full-autoing. It doesn't matter if it takes 10 or 11 hits-to-kill at 75m if you're landing every shot at 800rpm while your opponent is having to burst-fire his weapon to maintain accuracy. The Grau is still a very useful weapon if you're using it only for long-range combat because it's so easy to use and stay on target.

The FAL was THE top tier weapon inside 50m until the latest nerf. I used it plenty in Season 4 because I've always had a good trigger finger dating back to WaW when I mained the SVT-40 and got accused of having a modded controller. They nerfed the short-range damage and buffed longer range but not enough of a buff to make it as good as the AK, CR-56, Oden, or SCAR at longer ranges. So now the FAL is stuck in a nebulous "not good at anything" territory. It was always ludicrous that a battle rifle firing 7.62 NATO rounds designed in the 50s was somehow the best "SMG" in the game so I'm glad they nerfed it to the ground. IMO the FAL should be almost a DMR given its design at this point.

And yes, I agree about the CR-56. I stated it was the best AR for TTK area <50m. Outside 50m it quickly becomes a middle-of-the-pack rifle. This is why I sometimes switch to the AK, because it is nearly as good for <50m while also being THE BEST AR for >50m TTK.
 

H3rd

Recruit
@CMCFLYYY thank you for the detailed write up! I just read another thread about the server to server communication. I think that I just need to build confidence and go after enemies rather than wait to ambush them, like you said.

I will probably keep my AMAX/M4 (short/longer) load out for main use. I suck with sniper rifles. I still need to rank my Grau, so I will build another with the AMAX and the Grau for longer distances. I have also liked the Fennick and have that one build out nicely for short range.

I guess I need to play more and get used to staying on target for distance and challenge enemies in CQB more often.

I will not get into needing to learn how to use C4 and frags better! LOL.
 

Carlos

Owner
Staff member
Private
@CMCFLYYY thank you for the detailed write up! I just read another thread about the server to server communication. I think that I just need to build confidence and go after enemies rather than wait to ambush them, like you said.

I will probably keep my AMAX/M4 (short/longer) load out for main use. I suck with sniper rifles. I still need to rank my Grau, so I will build another with the AMAX and the Grau for longer distances. I have also liked the Fennick and have that one build out nicely for short range.

I guess I need to play more and get used to staying on target for distance and challenge enemies in CQB more often.

I will not get into needing to learn how to use C4 and frags better! LOL.
Fennec is another good choice. C4 is a little difficult to use, my suggestion is to use it in Shipment. Frags, too. But my combination would be Frags/Flash (or Stun).
 

H3rd

Recruit
Fennec is another good choice. C4 is a little difficult to use, my suggestion is to use it in Shipment. Frags, too. But my combination would be Frags/Flash (or Stun).
I tend to run with the landmines (bouncing Betty) and the heartbeat sensor.
 

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
Here's the deal with the Fennec. It's very good for ultra CQC situations, but it's literally awful outside that range. I built out two Fennec's to compare with the CR-56 below. I consider the Merc Grip, 40 round drum, Tac Laser, and Sleight of Hand to be absolute necessities for the Fennec. The 40 round drum and Merc Grip for obvious reasons, the Tac Laser because it gives the biggest ADS reduction other than No Stock (which nerfs recoil), and Sleight of Hand because the reload time is ungodly slow for the Fennec.

For the 5th attachment, the pink Fennec has a Mono Suppressor for quicker ADS, while the blue Fennec swaps that for the Deadfall barrel which adds more range and velocity over the Suppressor, while also reducing the recoil, in exchange for a slower ADS.

Neither Fennec is any better than the CR-56 for ultra CQC situations. Even at 0m, only the pink Fennec can muster a 0.01s advantage - 1 single ms. And thanks to the super-slow bullet velocity of the .45 ACP rounds the Fennec fires, its TTKs fall behind the CR-56 even before the first range dropoff. And that first range dorpoff comes VERY quickly with the Fennec - 12m for the pink Mono Suppressor and 16m for the blue Deadfall. Outside 35m when the CR-56 finally drops off range, both Fennec's are essentially 0.40s behind.

So yes, the Fennec is good for ultra CQC situations - basically <15m no matter how you kit it out. But outside that distance it's literally useless. So if you're running an AR/SMG combo then yea maybe it can have some usefulness clearing buildings, but whatever AR you have as a primary better be capable from 20m out because you'll need it as soon as you go outside.

2020-08-17_10-07-38.png

I tend to run with the landmines (bouncing Betty) and the heartbeat sensor.
I can definitely tell you're a more passive player if you're using Bouncing Betties as your lethal. IMO C4 is currently the best lethal to use because of how quickly you can throw and insta-detonate one (using the double-tap method). This allows you to kill any vehicles quickly and also finish off players who you just engaged CQC by tossing C4 over a rock or around a corner etc.

As far as the HB Sensor, it is useful in the early/mid-game but it loses effectiveness the longer you survive. The reason is, Ghost is far and away the most popular perk to run if you've gotten a 2nd loadout, which most players in the final circles have done. So at that point, your HB sensor is useless and a waste of a perk. If we can get a 3rd loadout near the final circles, I swap out for a class that has a Stun or Snapshot tactical as those have far more utility in the end-game.

But for early game the HB sensor is great. A lot of players buy Overkill classes with their first Loadout, so you will be able to detect all of them for the first 10-15 minutes of the game. Just don't get overly reliant on it because as the game progresses more and more players will have Ghost.

Heartbeat is a hit/miss thing. Better for Warzone.
Bouncing Betty is also hit/miss, too. I can easily lay prone and not die. Some people run through it, but that's bullshit.

My loadout of choice is: 725 Shotgun, Claymore (Restock!), RPG, Stun/Flash...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBM-g_MdDaA

Result: Merciless!
Carlos my man! Do you seriously play like this all the time!??!
 

H3rd

Recruit
@CMCFLYYY and @Carlos Thank you for the advice. I am kind of a passive player since I feel that I am not that great and do not want to lose quickly or let my teammates down. I will try to become more aggressive based on the info you both provided. I will try to use C4 and Frags more and I have recently be trying to update my load out a couple of times in the match. I used to wait for the free load out, but have been buying them as of late. I hope to report back some success!
 

Carlos

Owner
Staff member
Private
Here was my last game yesterday afternoon - took me a little bit to get going in this one. We play VERY differently lmao.

Nice gameplay, and nice PC you got there. I can notice that you put a lot of work in getting the graphics where it is now. :)
 

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
Nice gameplay, and nice PC you got there. I can notice that you put a lot of work in getting the graphics where it is now. :)
I have the recording output set to 1080p/60fps. That's part of why I'm barely able to keep 60fps in-game even with all graphics settings set to low. I need a new GPU!
 
I will probably keep my AMAX/M4 (short/longer) load out for main use. I suck with sniper rifles.
If you dont mind me saying, this setup is not the best and might go some way in explaining why you are losing gunfights.
In close range engagements, neither of those guns are going to take on an mp5/fennec, and I find that I am in engagements within 15m or so very often.
Not only is the ttk slower for those AR's, but they will have a slower ads and movement speed.
I personally dont use AR's in my loadouts anymore. I run with an mp5 to dominate close range, outside of which I will either push to a distance where the smg will dominate, or take cover/fall back and use my sniper (aiming for a one shot kill).
My issue with AR's is that in my experience, they lose to SMGs at close range, and can easily lose to snipers at medium-long range. I rarely use one of them, never two of them as you are.
 

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
If you dont mind me saying, this setup is not the best and might go some way in explaining why you are losing gunfights.
In close range engagements, neither of those guns are going to take on an mp5/fennec, and I find that I am in engagements within 15m or so very often.
Not only is the ttk slower for those AR's, but they will have a slower ads and movement speed.
I personally dont use AR's in my loadouts anymore. I run with an mp5 to dominate close range, outside of which I will either push to a distance where the smg will dominate, or take cover/fall back and use my sniper (aiming for a one shot kill).
My issue with AR's is that in my experience, they lose to SMGs at close range, and can easily lose to snipers at medium-long range. I rarely use one of them, never two of them as you are.
So you might want to rethink that - the "effective range" of that MP5 is basically 10m. Outside of 10m the CR-56 has a faster TTK, absurdly so outside 20m. If you're pairing this with a sniper, your MP5 is going to be severely outgunned from 10-50m. You're better off carrying an A/R like the CR-56, which is better from 20-50m and "almost as good" inside 10m. The same goes with the Fennec.

Now if you're running that MP5 with an A/R then you can forget all that, because in that case you would only be using the SMG for CQC inside buildings etc. So it would be shining in that 10-15m range, while the A/R would handle everything else. But unless your plan is to quick-scope anything outside 20m, you should probably be using an A/R as a secondary with your sniper.
 

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@CMCFLYYY works for me mate. Up to the mp5's second damage drop off point I'd be quite happy taking on a CR56.
I've got nothing against the CR56 really, but I hate how slow it's ads time is (unless you gear it more for mobility ofcourse, in which case I'd still take the mp5 up to 20m due to the recoil of the mobile CR56 build being pretty unpleasant).
So yeah within 10m I'd take the mp5 for it's faster ttk, between 10-20m I'd still take the mp5 as in a pinch I know I can get my sights on the opponent faster enough that any dps ttk advantage they had has gone.
Just my preference.
 

CMCFLYYY

Recruit
@CMCFLYYY works for me mate. Up to the mp5's second damage drop off point I'd be quite happy taking on a CR56.
I've got nothing against the CR56 really, but I hate how slow it's ads time is (unless you gear it more for mobility ofcourse, in which case I'd still take the mp5 up to 20m due to the recoil of the mobile CR56 build being pretty unpleasant).
So yeah within 10m I'd take the mp5 for it's faster ttk, between 10-20m I'd still take the mp5 as in a pinch I know I can get my sights on the opponent faster enough that any dps ttk advantage they had has gone.
Just my preference.
I realize personal preference is a thing, and yea if you feel more comfortable with the MP5 recoil mgmt compared to the CR-56 that's fine too. But that chart I posted already accounts for "50%" ADS time in addition to TTK. The standard is to use 50% ADS because you don't ADS in every encounter. If you increase that to 100%, assuming you ADS in every situation, then yes that also would favor the MP5 more with it's quicker ADS time.

Now you'd be looking at the MP5 being better inside 10m, but comparable through 20m instead of trailing at that point. I would still make the argument that outside 20m you are at a serious TTK advantage and I'd prefer something with more mid-range efficiency to pair with my Kar, but again I realize personal preference and recoil mgmt is a thing.
 

Attachments

@CMCFLYYY oh yeah man outside of 20m the mp5 is gonna be annihilated by the cr56.
But imo within 10m the mp5 obviously dominates and within 10-20m 100% of ads time should be considered within ttk (as hip firing in this range isn't going to lead to many won gunfights) and by this metric, the mp5 is again the better choice.
 

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