Multi Anyone else NOT LIKE the Exo Jetpack?

[ColdStrangle]

At writing, I'm Pre 4 Lvl 36 and having played alot, I'm no fan of the Exo Jetpack.
The more I play "Classic Team Deathmatch" the more I realize how much more I enjoy the game without it, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that the game was really never designed with Jetpacks in the first place.

The level design seems completely built around being a Jetpack free game.
The way, without a Jetpack, players move around the map seems like it was built with solely that type of player movement in mind.
Once you add the Jetpack, players just hop to and fro with no sense of direction.
It doesn't have any of the typical restrictions that direct players in some directions, rather than others, or to some points on the map, rather than others.
Up high there's no cover to utilize - particularly spots that are inaccessable without Jetpacks.

The Spawn System is blamed alot, but again, I think it was designed around more limited player movement.
If a Sniper kills an enemy, and that enemy respawns again only 40 feet away towards the middle of the map, instead on the other side of the map, then it makes all the difference in the world if that enemy can Jetpack in a matter of seconds from the middle-ish of the map to the edge of the map, and up to the top of the perch.

The Netcode, particularly lag compensation, doesn't seem particularly suited to Jetpacks, either.
Many players have remarked that alot of the time, players using the Jetpack appear to teleport. I'm not talking about players with shaky connection, who appear to teleport as they run from one place to another. I'm talking about players with moderate to poor connections, Jet-Jumping from one spot to anther, particularly up and down obsticles.
It becomes even more obvious during fire-fighter with players using such moves, as your gun will appear to kill in to few, or too many, hits.

The Weapons.
The weapons, with their relatively high Time To Kill, seem built around being Jetpack free as well. While most of them are useful for long range engagements and moving around obsticles, none of them are well suited for Jump-Shoot-Jump or Dash-Shoot-Dash gunplay, with the exception of the Tac-12 Shotgun. This is less true during Hardcore Kill Confirmed gameplay, but that's not the mode the guns were built around. Also, most of the un-cookable timed grenades for the exo-launcher, are sortof useless against a player who can in a instant be 10 feet away from it.

Things that were minimized that I believe were intended to be greater....
I'm pretty sure that with Jetpacks being a late, forced addition into a 3 year project, other more interesting aspects of the Exo Suit were minimize, particularly the Exo Abilities. From Shield to Overclock, most players don't utilize them because of the short effect and lack of recharging. I suspect that these Abilities were minimized to try to reduce the chaos caused by the Jetpack. The game would have been much more interesting, and probably a whole lot more fun, we could recharge these abilities, and use them often, in place of the chaotic Exo jumping.

O well. At least they tried something new. Hopefully next time they'll let SHG stick to their creative vision, instead of trying to grasp at latest trends. The game would have been alot better for it.

 

[Carlos]

The Spawn System is blamed alot, but again, I think it was designed around more limited player movement.

Uh.... No. Try spawning, and minding your own business. Be killed 5 seconds into your spawn or a few minutes of your spawn. I've had to deal with that a few times, and it's as annoying as ever.

I really wish that Sledgehammer Games put a little more thought to the spawn system and model it after COD4's spawn design. The spawn logic needs a little bit of a re-work.

If a Sniper kills an enemy, and that enemy respawns again only 40 feet away towards the middle of the map, instead on the other side of the map, then it makes all the difference in the world if that enemy can Jetpack in a matter of seconds from the middle-ish of the map to the edge of the map, and up to the top of the perch.

Well, see... I had a similar situation as indicated above.

The Netcode, particularly lag compensation, doesn't seem particularly suited to Jetpacks, either.
Many players have remarked that alot of the time, players using the Jetpack appear to teleport. I'm not talking about players with shaky connection, who appear to teleport as they run from one place to another. I'm talking about players with moderate to poor connections, Jet-Jumping from one spot to anther, particularly up and down obsticles.
It becomes even more obvious during fire-fighter with players using such moves, as your gun will appear to kill in to few, or too many, hits.

I've had a few of these, and it's an annoying occurrence, some people even leave in the middle of the match and the player disappears. *sigh* Scared little chickens.

Otherwise: Ditto.

The Weapons.
The weapons, with their relatively high Time To Kill, seem built around being Jetpack free as well. While most of them are useful for long range engagements and moving around obsticles, none of them are well suited for Jump-Shoot-Jump or Dash-Shoot-Dash gunplay, with the exception of the Tac-12 Shotgun. This is less true during Hardcore Kill Confirmed gameplay, but that's not the mode the guns were built around. Also, most of the un-cookable timed grenades for the exo-launcher, are sortof useless against a player who can in a instant be 10 feet away from it.

...As much as I like the weapons, I have to concur with you. Most of the weapons have a low mobility. Like the laser gun - every time I ADS someone, there's a delay... Or even a slight delay.

The timed grenades are effective. It's saved my life a few times or killed someone after I die in the game.

I'm pretty sure that with Jetpacks being a late, forced addition into a 3 year project, other more interesting aspects of the Exo Suit were minimize, particularly the Exo Abilities. From Shield to Overclock, most players don't utilize them because of the short effect and lack of recharging. I suspect that these Abilities were minimized to try to reduce the chaos caused by the Jetpack. The game would have been much more interesting, and probably a whole lot more fun, we could recharge these abilities, and use them often, in place of the chaotic Exo jumping.

The jetpacks/exosuit is the earliest concept of the game. Sledgehammer Games has been repeating this over and over. The only thing I agree with is that most of the "recharged" equipment, like the Shield aren't used much because of their slow rechargeability.

O well. At least they tried something new. Hopefully next time they'll let SHG stick to their creative vision, instead of trying to grasp at latest trends. The game would have been alot better for it.

They did try something new. And Activision has been supporting SHG the whole time through.. SHG was using their creative vision of the game. There's even concept artwork that show that they've been working on this for 3 years now.

 

[ColdStrangle]

Hi Carlos, thanks for responding.
I want to reverse my accusation at Activision, a company I've been a fan of since Heavy Gear and Battlezone: I do not want to accuse Activision of bullying SHG into a shallow rehash of trending concepts. Everyone knows that SHG has a really good relationship with Activision, highlighted by how SHG pulled through for them with MW3.
However, in the current gaming PR climate, highlighted by companies like EA and Ubisoft who lie to their customers with total bullshit that LITERALLY insults our intelligence, skepticism is rational.
Activision also has a responsibility to promote, protect and evolve their brands. They have that responsibility to the investors, without whom the funding would not be available to make these games possible, and to the dedicated fans of those IP's with elephant memories, without whom there is no profits for investors to benefit from. If a game does not satisfy both profitability and customer satisfaction, it's gone. So if I was head of Activision, and had that much at stake, I might opt to push through some major changes too.
With that in mind, I have to at least argue for the possibility, that the game was not designed with Jetpacks. Or at the very least, argue that their presence was greatly increased beyond the original concept.
I cannot say who forced it further, but it's just obvious that Jetpack mobility as standard was a later inclusion. By the maps, which are the best the series has seen so far, it's pretty obvious it was designed for more limited player movement.
Maps like Ascend has almost no areas to specially use Jetpacks.
Maps like Biohazard have roof top areas but no cover up top to utilize, and invisible walls keeping players from accessing higher parts of the map.
It looks as if the maps were done, but after adding Jetpacks as standard they realized they would need to restrict players from these areas and invisible walls was the fastest to do it. In fact all the maps could be put in one of either category of "no high cover" or "major invisible walls." It's not to say they aren't good, as C_TDM they're probably some of the best COD has put out.
As for the spawn system, try C_TDM, I think you'll notice that your team mates both spawn and stay closer together than in TDM. I have yet to get a spawn kill in C_TDM yet either.
Other than lining up respawn points around the outer perimeter of the map, and programing the respawn system to choose the respawn point that is furthest from an enemy for a friendly respawn, I'm not sure how you could improve the respawn logic in TDM.
It's worth noting that while COD4 was revolutionary, it wasn't perfect. Most of the issues COD has now with crazy random respawning and worthless kill-streaks, was an attempt to change partied-player behavior of camping out an area and racking up cheap kills to get the best kill-streaks. Despite COD Ghosts having crazy respawns and weak kill-streaks, group camping for high KDR's was a major issue, made worse by decreased visibility over range and the inclusion of guillie suits.
The answer is to pervasive camping is to have only point streaks that do not reset after death, with a multiplier for consecutive kills. Similar to acquiring a Titan in Titanfall or the super-ability in Destiny. COD is moving in that direction, but treading lightly, with inclusion of Support Squadmate with the shield in Ghosts or the Support Sentry in AW.
Expect to see more Offense theme streaks with optional Support Streak modifiers in future COD games.
Until then, they're going to keep trying randomized spawns to discourage camping for streaks, until they realize they're not going to fix camping by breaking the re spawn system.
In the mean time: this all still suggests that the mobility of Jetpacks was not meant to be as heavily utilized as it is. Jetpacks gives the player the ability to attack camping spots from multiple angles. If they factored that in right at the beginning of multi-player prototype playtesting, the respawn system would be different. Especially if they really did develop the game over a 3 year time span.
None of this to say the game isn't good, it is essentially Black Ops 3, which is exactly what I wanted.
Also the Hardcore modes are awesome. Other than needing the same changes they made with Black Ops 2, such as instant respawns in HC TDM and reflective friendly fire. The fast-to-instant kill times with weapons in Hardcore mesh perfectly with jump-shoot-jump and dash-shoot-dash Jetpack mechanics.
(Still waiting on the change to the player models in Hardcore so one team doesn't have bright green exo's and purple kneepads.)
I still feel grenades are useless, but if you're getting kills with them, then that's cool. But I think you'll find by the time the DLC comes out, that most players will automatically react to the grenade indicator with a double jump 'n dash.
We could go into detail even further, weapon by weapon, map by map, but I think it's fair to least suspect certain aspects of the Jetpack were added in to the multi-player at a later development stage.
And even if they really were the center-piece around a 3 year development (which wouldn't explain why half the single player game doesn't feature Jetpacks), it still doesn't nullify that many players, myself included, don't like it. They may tweek the gameplay, netcode, weapon function, etc, and I'll change my mind -but right now- it's presence feels odd, forced and just unnecessary.

 

[Carlos]

@ColdStrangle that has to be one of the longest, and the best post that I've seen on these forums. THAT kind of post is the exact reason why I bought this site in the first place! THIS is why I have a passion for communities. People like you who have a real passion for [something like] gaming.

However, in the current gaming PR climate, highlighted by companies like EA and Ubisoft who lie to their customers with total bullshit that LITERALLY insults our intelligence, skepticism is rational.

And I completely understand. It's understandable. Activision was guilty of this before CODAW came out. Ghost was a prime example of that. They promised a "Next Gen" game, and they failed to deliver on that. The blame isn't on Activision, but rather on the current Infinity Ward team.

Yeah, console transition is a "game changer" for developers, but they should be excited to jump into working on the game.

Activision also has a responsibility to promote, protect and evolve their brands. They have that responsibility to the investors, without whom the funding would not be available to make these games possible, and to the dedicated fans of those IP's with elephant memories, without whom there is no profits for investors to benefit from. If a game does not satisfy both profitability and customer satisfaction, it's gone. So if I was head of Activision, and had that much at stake, I might opt to push through some major changes too.

And that's why companies like Activision are better than EA who has been hailed as the biggest video game company in the world today. EA deserves that whole "worst company in America" title. All that money, and no quality. Really.

I loved EA games, don't get me wrong. Future Cop, the Jurassic Park games (especially the 2D games), and other cool PlayStation games.

With that in mind, I have to at least argue for the possibility, that the game was not designed with Jetpacks. Or at the very least, argue that their presence was greatly increased beyond the original concept.

Okay, I'm competent with that comment.

I cannot say who forced it further, but it's just obvious that Jetpack mobility as standard was a later inclusion. By the maps, which are the best the series has seen so far, it's pretty obvious it was designed for more limited player movement.

Yes, and No. Yes, by a byproduct - yes... it was a standard that was included in the game as the devs iterate. No, it wasn't designed for limited player movement, in fact... It was designed for more freedom to the player. I mean, jumping from the ground to a second story building? YES!

Maps like Ascend has almost no areas to specially use Jetpacks.
Maps like Biohazard have roof top areas but no cover up top to utilize, and invisible walls keeping players from accessing higher parts of the map.

That's called balancing.

It looks as if the maps were done, but after adding Jetpacks as standard they realized they would need to restrict players from these areas and invisible walls was the fastest to do it. In fact all the maps could be put in one of either category of "no high cover" or "major invisible walls." It's not to say they aren't good, as C_TDM they're probably some of the best COD has put out.

Yeap, like I said: Balancing.

As for the spawn system, try C_TDM, I think you'll notice that your team mates both spawn and stay closer together than in TDM. I have yet to get a spawn kill in C_TDM yet either.
Other than lining up respawn points around the outer perimeter of the map, and programing the respawn system to choose the respawn point that is furthest from an enemy for a friendly respawn, I'm not sure how you could improve the respawn logic in TDM.

I'm not sure how you can improve the respawn logic in TDM, either... but objective game modes shouldn't have spawn kills as it is, but it does. It should use the same logic as TDM, but a little bit more random. But, see, that's what I meant before: The spawn logic should be more robust. It should be... like it's own computer.

It's worth noting that while COD4 was revolutionary, it wasn't perfect. Most of the issues COD has now with crazy random respawning and worthless kill-streaks, was an attempt to change partied-player behavior of camping out an area and racking up cheap kills to get the best kill-streaks. Despite COD Ghosts having crazy respawns and weak kill-streaks, group camping for high KDR's was a major issue, made worse by decreased visibility over range and the inclusion of guillie suits.
The answer is to pervasive camping is to have only point streaks that do not reset after death, with a multiplier for consecutive kills. Similar to acquiring a Titan in Titanfall or the super-ability in Destiny. COD is moving in that direction, but treading lightly, with inclusion of Support Squadmate with the shield in Ghosts or the Support Sentry in AW.
Expect to see more Offense theme streaks with optional Support Streak modifiers in future COD games.

The crazy respawning is the brain-child of the MW2 development. Most of the exploits, and most of the features that you see now - are based off of MW2, as seen in MW3. The worthless killstreaks were made to satisfy a market. People wanted customizable killstreaks, they sort of delivered that with MW2, but was expanded in CODAW.

What I wanted, was to go beyond the traditional 3, 5, 7 killstreak that was in COD4, but they ruined the idea by making the whole thing customizable, paving the way for exploits to the killstreaks.

I have nothing to say about Ghosts, it's a piece of shit that should die in a fire. I could call Ghosts the worst COD title, and I could put it on top of MW2. Ghosts > MW2 >>> Everything else.

Until then, they're going to keep trying randomized spawns to discourage camping for streaks, until they realize they're not going to fix camping by breaking the re spawn system.

The randomized spawns are supposed to discourage camping, but camping still exists because of the spawn logic, which is why I said - go back to the COD4 roots. Because the COD4 spawns were near-perfect. Every moment was always a different way of playing. With COD4, I can't remember the last time I went to a spawn point just to chokepoint.

In the mean time: this all still suggests that the mobility of Jetpacks was not meant to be as heavily utilized as it is. Jetpacks gives the player the ability to attack camping spots from multiple angles. If they factored that in right at the beginning of multi-player prototype playtesting, the respawn system would be different. Especially if they really did develop the game over a 3 year time span.

I think that the jetpacks were supposed to discourage camping, too. Because everyone is fighting with each other, jumping around, hovering around - it will be hard for a camper to actually "win."

None of this to say the game isn't good, it is essentially Black Ops 3, which is exactly what I wanted.
Also the Hardcore modes are awesome. Other than needing the same changes they made with Black Ops 2, such as instant respawns in HC TDM and reflective friendly fire. The fast-to-instant kill times with weapons in Hardcore mesh perfectly with jump-shoot-jump and dash-shoot-dash Jetpack mechanics.
(Still waiting on the change to the player models in Hardcore so one team doesn't have bright green exo's and purple kneepads.)

I can't get over the hardcore modes in CODAW. Too many people chicken out, those "Memory Loss" dialogues aren't because you lost a packet, it's because the host left the match.

I still feel grenades are useless, but if you're getting kills with them, then that's cool. But I think you'll find by the time the DLC comes out, that most players will automatically react to the grenade indicator with a double jump 'n dash.

Sometimes, you can't really escape those bombs. I'm guilty of it myself! I believe that it's effective, and I like it the way it's designed now. I can just waltz in, shoot the grenade, and run. That's how much I like it. Feels sporty.

We could go into detail even further, weapon by weapon, map by map, but I think it's fair to least suspect certain aspects of the Jetpack were added in to the multi-player at a later development stage.

It was, but the exo suits gave away to developers thinking "What can we do to make this game more... innovative?" The dev team explicitly wanted to make everything new, and different, as a matter of fact, here's an article I did a while ago: http://www.advancedwarfareblog.com/...arfare-is-about-skill-says-sledgehammer-games

And even if they really were the center-piece around a 3 year development (which wouldn't explain why half the single player game doesn't feature Jetpacks), it still doesn't nullify that many players, myself included, don't like it. They may tweek the gameplay, netcode, weapon function, etc, and I'll change my mind -but right now- it's presence feels odd, forced and just unnecessary.

Now I understand why you don't like it. Finish the whole game, come back here with more impressions. The trailer shows jumping in single player.

 

[Atlas of Karma]

I am with you @ColdStrangle , but for me it's a bit different. I'm a knifer and have been for a while, at least since MW2. The knifing in this game is dreadful to begin with and the spike drone (lethal non-explosive) has slow momentum through the air when fired from the exo launcher. All this means boost dodging or jumping can get you out of a situation against me and my petty blade at least 90% of the time. Plus the punch is faster than the combat knife unless I'm running a slow shooting pistol with a tac knife (slower rate of fire pistols have faster melees with the tac knife which is a good balance, but 50 hipfire kills with the pistol just for the tac knife is so stupid).

I found this all very disappointing and the punching still hasn't been fixed. I have a knife out, you are aimed in with a gun...both hands on the gun, you take your hand off the gun and punch me before I can swipe my knife at you. I'm not asking for MW2's commando pro, but to address the knifing, I have to be within 1 foot. My reach is not even my character's arm length in the game. That coupled with exo movements and abilities has made this game a challenge and I've found myself going back-and-fourth between classic and regular modes very frustrated. Don't get me wrong the exo movements and abilities also give me some advantages, but not as much as the normal player.

I also tend to agree on your view of the maps. Their design is still very much ground-centered flow. On the ground the maps flow very well and uniquely. They play very differently. With exo movements people just jump from roof top to roof top on any map pushing enemy spawns.
You have mentioned a couple of the issues with exo movements and maps all blending in. No cover, or no roof tops simply. There is no map flow to the roof tops. None at all, no choke points, no cover areas with a middle "no man's land", no real direction (like you can only get up one side and leave from another, or there's only 2 ways up and down). The roof tops are pretty barren. Maybe a couple vents on Riot come to mind, or a building is to side of one of the edges on certain maps. Really most of them are flat and you can come from any side and leave from any side. No flow, it's a flood.

That flood contrary to what some might think doesn't make the multiplayer more chaotic, intense, actiony, or interesting. It's monotonous movement from rooftop to rooftop until you see an enemy or hey maybe you just sit on the rooftop and let the enemy come to you.

Like you addressed there is extra lag with the exo movements compared to Classic modes. It's not something that can really be dealt with yet. It happened in Titanfall albeit not as badly and to some degree it was fixed, but titanfall's stuff was actually pretty different from Advanced Warfare's. They have been putting out updates for overall lag fixes (I believe all 3 updates included lag/matchmaking improvements). It's still not fixed and it may only partially get fixed. There's still not dedicated servers. I haven't seen much host migration either, but people don't leave games as much.